Uruguay Foreign Minister Mario Lubetkin says Montevideo seeks new MERCOSUR-India talks to deepen trade ties. He traces the push to PM Narendra Modi’s meeting with President Orsi (Uruguay) in Rio last year, where the PM outlined a 10-year vision for bilateral ties.
New Delhi has spent the year preparing for its BRICS moment. As India takes the chair of the grouping for the fourth time, the capital has rolled out the red carpet for a gathering that goes well beyond the 11-member bloc. Partner countries and outreach invitees have also been brought into the room, turning Bharat Mandapam into a snapshot of the wider Global South and the shifting architecture of global diplomacy. Among those guests is Uruguay, represented in Delhi by Foreign Minister Mario Lubetkin. In an exclusive conversation with NewsX Foreign Affairs Editor Sukanya Saha, Lubetkin looked back at where this India-Uruguay story really picked up pace: Rio de Janeiro last year, where Prime Minister Narendra Modi met Uruguay’s President Yamandú Orsi. What happened next surprised both Orsi and Lubetkin. Modi arrived with several pages of ideas for what India-Uruguay ties could look like over the next decade. A little over a year later, Uruguay has landed in New Delhi as a BRICS outreach invitee, ready to see just how much of that ambitious roadmap can actually be turned into reality. And Lubetkin is not thinking small. From taking India-MERCOSUR ties into a new phase and figuring out where Uruguay fits into the evolving BRICS story, to making a rather bold pitch for Bollywood to discover Montevideo, the Foreign Minister has plenty on his wish list. In his words: “India’s time has come.”
Edited excerpts…
Q. Why BRICS? What does Uruguay bring to the grouping, and what does Uruguay hope to gain as a BRICS outreach member?
A: “First of all, we are here because we received an invitation from Prime Minister Modi to President Orsi (Uruguay). We were also invited last year by President Lula (Brazil) when the BRICS Summit was held in Rio de Janeiro. So, for us, it is very positive and important to be here. “We are not part of BRICS, but BRICS has become one of the key groupings in the world, bringing together countries that are growing and playing an increasingly strategic and important role globally. We have seen how the grouping has expanded. So, when you receive this kind of invitation, you need to be here, listen, exchange views, and share your own vision on the issues being discussed. That is why we are here.”
Q. So, does Uruguay support BRICS’ push for de-dollarisation? BRICS started with the ambition of reducing dependence on the US dollar and promoting trade in local currencies. Do you support that ambition, or do you believe the US dollar will remain indispensable to global trade and finance?
A: “First of all, you know that we are not members of BRICS, so it is not for us to decide on this crucial issue. But I have read some of the views expressed by BRICS members, and not all of them are pushing for dedollarisation. And I think that is understandable. “For Uruguay, de-dollarisation is not part of our strategy. At the same time, there is a difference between continuing to use the dollar and developing more business and trade using local currencies. That is part of how economies and international trade are evolving, and Uruguay is also part of that process.”
Q. You mentioned you are a non-member. So, why isn’t Uruguay a full member of BRICS? Do you want to become a full member eventually, or are you comfortable being a partner country for now? And why have several other Latin American countries, such as Mexico and Argentina, also been cautious about joining BRICS as full members?
A: “First of all, I think that Uruguay, like many other countries in the region, is in the process of developing its relations with key countries. And it is not necessarily the case that, in order to develop those relationships, you have to be a member of a particular grouping. “If we look at the key countries of BRICS, we already have very good relations with China, we are developing our relationship with Russia, we have a very close relationship with Brazil, and we are also developing our relationship with South Africa. “Now, between India and Uruguay, we hope to develop a very important and strategic relationship for the future. So, in a way, we are already engaging with many of the countries that form the core of BRICS. From our point of view, at this stage, it is not necessary to be part of the full grouping. “Some countries in the region that were invited to join have changed their governments and, as a result, changed their position on BRICS. But the important thing for us is to understand where BRICS is going and what it represents. “If you look at the changing geopolitical scenario, BRICS is clearly becoming an important strategic player. So, it is important for Uruguay to remain close to the grouping and maintain a dynamic relationship with its members. That is what we want to do now and in the future.”
Q. Now, you currently hold the MERCOSUR presidency, and MERCOSUR has had a trade pact with India since 2009. But trade between India and Uruguay remains well below its potential. So, will Uruguay push for an expansion of the pact during its tenure?
A: “First of all, I think we all agree that we need to move into a new stage in our relationship with India. When I say “we”, I mean our partners in the region, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay, Bolivia, and the other countries associated with MERCOSUR. “It is true, as you said, that we have an agreement with India dating back to 2009. But now we have a major challenge: we need to take another step and deepen this relationship. India is negotiating with many countries at the same time, and I think both sides need to move towards a new stage in their economic relationship. “This is one of the key challenges and goals of our presidency. We took over the MERCOSUR presidency in June and will hold it until December, for six months. During this period, we want to start new negotiations between MERCOSUR and India and work towards a deeper and more comprehensive agreement, taking into account the changes that have taken place and what both India and the MERCOSUR countries need for this new period.”
Q. Minister, Argentina is pushing for greater flexibility within MERCOSUR. Does Uruguay support allowing member countries more freedom to pursue trade deals independently?
A:“Look, two weeks ago we organised an informal meeting of the MERCOSUR foreign ministers in Montevideo. One of the points we discussed was flexibility. We can also call it modernisation. We need to make MERCOSUR more modern and more flexible. “MERCOSUR was created in 1991, and the world has changed significantly since then. In recent years, MERCOSUR has signed agreements with partners such as the European Union and EFTA. We also hope to start negotiations with India during our presidency, as well as with Canada and the UAE. “So, the world today is completely different from what it was in 1991. If we look at the geopolitical and global trade scenarios, everything is changing. “One of the points we discussed in Montevideo was how to transform MERCOSUR so that it can adapt to these new challenges and new realities. We need to move quickly, be concrete, and be pragmatic. “And in the few hours I have been here in India, meeting with Foreign Minister Dr. S. Jaishankar and the Minister of Commerce and Industry, Piyush Goyal, I feel that we share the same outlook. We need to move quickly, be concrete and pragmatic, and work together to think about the future.”
Q. You mentioned your meetings with Dr. Jaishankar and Piyush Goyal. Tell us more about your conversations with them.
A: “I want to say something because I think we are developing a very interesting process with India. I say “process” deliberately, because this is not just about individual events. “One of the key moments was last year, at the BRICS Summit in Rio de Janeiro, when Prime Minister Modi met President Orsi. It was the first time the two presidents had met, and it was a very interesting and concrete exchange of ideas. “I was very surprised, and my president was also very surprised, by PM Modi, who came with several pages of ideas about his vision for the relationship with Uruguay over the next ten years. “One of the reasons I am here now is to work with my counterparts to turn some of those ideas into concrete initiatives. We are not thinking only about the next six months. We are thinking about the next five or ten years, if we can. “After that meeting between the leaders, India took a very important step by opening its embassy in Uruguay. You sent a new ambassador there about a month ago, after not having a resident ambassador for some time. And now I am here. So, what we discussed with both ministers today was how we can develop a roadmap for our bilateral relationship. “We discussed a very concrete roadmap for the next one or two years, not only in terms of India-Uruguay relations, but also taking into account our wider responsibilities. Uruguay currently chairs CELAC, representing 33 countries in Latin America and the Caribbean. We also chair MERCOSUR, and at this moment we chair the G77, representing 134 countries plus China within the United Nations. “All these elements come together. We are both strong democracies, and there are many areas where we can work together. “In just a few days, I will meet the Indian Foreign Minister again in New York, at the CELAC-India meeting. As the chair of CELAC, I will formally welcome Dr. Jaishankar to that conversation between CELAC and India. “So, this is part of a broader process in which I think we are moving very quickly, especially if you consider all the developments I have explained to you.”
Q. You mentioned expanding trade with India, and you also met Commerce Minister Piyush Goyal. If you had to name just one area where India and Uruguay could deliver a breakthrough in the next two years, what would it be? It could be defence, agriculture, pharmaceuticals, anything. Just one area.
A: “I would say trade, business and investment for the present and for the future. “But we cannot think about that without also developing other areas that are very important. I was talking to the Indian Foreign Minister this morning about the cultural side of the relationship. I told him, jokingly, that we want Bollywood in Uruguay. We already have Netflix. “Netflix has started producing some of its series in Uruguay because it is a very attractive location. We could also think about Indian filmmakers and actors working with Uruguayan artists. “The point is that we need to show each other new possibilities and create greater awareness of what exists in both countries. If we know each other better across different areas, it becomes much easier to develop business, trade and investment in the future. “That is also part of building a stronger relationship between India and Uruguay.”
Q. Now, coming back to India, China and Brazil, they’re all seeking a greater voice for the Global South. So, in your view, who is actually leading that conversation today? When you think of the Global South, is there one country that stands out as doing the most to represent and voice its concerns?
A: “First of all, it is not easy to identify just one country. I think there are different countries playing leading roles. It is clear that India is increasingly playing an important leadership role in the world, and China is also playing a very strong role. Brazil, in another way, is also playing a very strong role. “I don’t think that in the future one country, as happened in the past, will be able to lead the Global South on its own. I think several countries with strong development and growing influence will contribute centrally to this new framework of multilateralism, because that is how both big and small countries need to play a role. “Uruguay has a population of just 3.5 million people, so of course there is a difference when we compare ourselves with a country like India. But we chair MERCOSUR, which represents around 400 million people, and we chair CELAC, which represents around 700 million people. The point is to understand how each country can play its role and what space we have. For us, it is very important to develop our capacity and work with BRICS countries and other groupings to build a new concept of partnership.
Q. You’ve been in the room with many of the world’s most powerful leaders during the BRICS Summit. What is that one conversation, encounter or moment from the Summit so far that has stayed with you?
A: “I think the approach that India has chosen for this BRICS meeting is the correct one. If I remember correctly, one of the key areas of focus is innovation, but there are also other important priorities, including sustainability and resilience. I think this is exactly the direction in which this group of countries needs to develop. “I hope that when we listen to the speeches of the leaders this weekend, we will hear these concepts reflected in their vision for the future. Because when we talk about innovation, sustainability and resilience, we are talking about something very concrete. We are talking about how these countries can build together and how we can push the world in a more positive direction. “Today, the world has many questions and many insecurities, and that is not a good situation if we are thinking about our future and the future of our children. That is why I think this focus on sustainability, resilience, and innovation is so important. BRICS can play a very important role in building a more positive vision for the future.”
Q. You also spoke about the need for concrete discussions. We have two major conflicts unfolding right now: the war in Ukraine and the conflict involving Iran and the US, with the situation around the Strait of Hormuz having a wider impact on the global economy. Have you had any conversations with Indian leaders about the Strait of Hormuz or the Ukraine conflict?
A:“Conflict affects the development of countries, creates instability and can have a serious impact on food security. “As President of CELAC, one principle we continue to highlight is the 2015 CELAC resolution declaring Latin America and the Caribbean a peaceful region, free of nuclear weapons. “We have maintained that position, and we believe this can be one of the region’s contributions to the world: showing that conflicts can be addressed through peaceful processes rather than war. “Of course, nothing is guaranteed in international affairs, but maintaining peace in our region is something we want to continue working towards.”
Q. In one to five words, how would you describe India’s BRICS chairmanship?
A:“I would say, ‘India’s time has come.’ “This is not my first time in India. I have visited many times for different reasons throughout my life, but I think this is the time of India. “India can play an incredible role in the future, not only for itself but also in shaping how countries work together. This is something I want to understand better during my time here. “When we talk about a roadmap, it is because we want a stronger India and a stronger Uruguay. I am convinced that there is a great opportunity for both countries to work together, and I hope to learn more during these days about how we can contribute together to this major challenge.”
